The Mastermind behind the Murderer:
STEVE TOMLIN of Lancaster's DEMI-PARADISE
on Lancaster as "The County's City of Culture',
Grade I listed buildings, teamwork
- and producing William Shakespeare's
KING RICHARD III.

Our Chief Arts Correspondent Michael Nunn talks to Steve Tomlin, Lancaster's own Mastermind champion of 1991, and now the presiding and guiding eminence of locally-based Demi-Paradise theatre company.

MN You have been working on another big project for some time, one that many have been awaiting news of, the next Shakespeare in Lancaster Castle.

ST Yes. We are doing King Richard III in March next year.

MN Why that particular play? It's a big one to tackle …

ST Well, aren't they all! We began in 2000 with King Richard II, and that is the first of Shakespeare's sequence of plays about the Wars of the Roses. From Richard II there is a glorious diversion via Henry IV Parts 1 and 2 and Henry V then it all starts to implode and we really get stuck in with the three King Henry VI plays (parts 1, 2 and 3), and Richard III provides one last roller coaster ride of murder and mayhem that brings the story to a sobering conclusion. So there is a historical sequence invoked.

MN That makes sense, but why not the Henry plays in between? They are not often done and, I must admit, I have not read all the Henry VI plays myself, nor ever seen them on stage or on film.

ST The plays themselves – the action, the settings – are not really suited to the physical environment of the castle. And maybe I just wanted to cut to the quick and go for the big one! … In the end I always ask myself, when selecting a piece of theatre for a particular location, ‘Does the play fit the building?'

MN I see – so A Midsummer Night's Dream would look silly in a Gothic edifice like Lancaster Castle?

ST Well, I don't think it would do it any great favours, that's for sure. And if it doesn't fit, don't do it. You can't move the set, after all, and that working with, and through what you have round you is part of the attraction for me, the cast, everyone else involved with the production.

MN And of course the audience too?

ST Definitely; they can't get enough of it! It is good to accept the physical limitations such as the building – it sets boundaries and gives markers, a framework for the work you can do.

MN A sort of basic structure, in more ways than just the physical setting?

ST Yes. I like to do a piece which reflects the history or use of the building. Also, remember that it has been used as a prison (and still is), as well as being in the past an administrative centre, an asylum and a debtors' prison .

MN Although I didn't see your Macbeth there in 2002, I can see links between witchcraft and inter-tribal feuding.

ST Yes, Macbeth was written for James I who came to the English throne in 1603 on the death of Queen Elizabeth. It flattered the king's ancestry and reflected his active interest in the identification and suppression of witches and witchcraft. The Pendle Witch trials actually took place in Shakespeare's lifetime, in 1612, only a few years after Macbeth is thought to have been written.

MN But what about All's Well That Ends Well last year, and Measure for Measure in 2001?

ST I made a slight exception with All's Well That Ends Well; it is a flawed and under-rated master work, a so called ‘problem play' yet looked well, and made perfect emotional and intellectual sense in the Castle setting of courts, dungeons and tower.

MN I think it worked very well.

ST Thank you. Lots of people said after the performances that they had not seen it before, were curious to see what it was about, and nearly all of them really seemed to enjoy it. And Measure for Measure is possible the first-ever ‘courtroom drama' we have, and again a fair part of the action is set in a prison. That play is not done too regularly, and I think it is vitally important to work on neglected and ‘unfashionable' pieces.

MN Quite right too – there is too much ‘fashion-fascism' in the theatre (and the arts generally) these days. Hardly anyone touches Samuel Beckett, or Sheridan, these days, and the recent Dennis Potter renaissance-reappraisal is much overdue.

ST You do not have to be ‘politically correct' to put on good theatre – and get the audiences in too. It's more a matter, as I say, of choosing the right play for the right venue and letting it live and speak for itself again. Our audiences always seem to appreciate that, and that's just great…

MN There is more to life than Lloyd Webber, musicals and theatre from the last thirty years. But back to Tudor times …

ST. Another reason for choosing Richard III is because it has some very good roles for women – the widowed Queen Margaret, the Lady Anne (whom Richard cynically pursues and exploits), Queen Elizabeth, widow of King Edward and mother of the hapless ‘Princes in the Tower' and of course Richard's own aged mother, the Duchess of York.

MN But there are problems with the play, too. It exists in some dozen different early forms, it is one of Shakespeare's longest pieces, and has nearly fifty different speaking parts.

ST We look on that as a challenge, Michael! … few theatre companies can afford to mount full cast productions like that, these days.

MN Some productions have used lots of extras, or supernumeraries, so you could really go mad and put on a large-scale blockbuster, such as the Olivier film.

ST No, that is not our approach at all. With some character cuts, amalgamations and careful doubling of parts – remember there are a lot of deaths in the play! – I now have a total cast of thirteen, as well as having children for the young princes….that makes it our largest cast show ever.

MN Looking at the length of it, will you be making any cuts?

ST Yes. It is very difficult to cut much from it, because nearly everything is essential material for the plot, and to drive forward the play's great dramatic effects. My instincts as actor will guide me here, and my feel as a director too. I will not finalise the cuts and our ‘acting text' until the summer or later; that is a part of the pre-production process that can wait. Richard III may be long, but it doesn't feel long and it is not an over-written or complex play. What cuts I make will be more ‘nip and tuck' than major surgery.

MN That makes sense; you don't want to drive horses and battlewagons through the narrative. So what's this ‘production process?' When will the show go on?

ST We have confirmed a three-and-a-half week run from Wednesday 1 to Saturday 25 March next year, 2006. To meet demand we've extended our normal run by a week.

MN Bit more chance of more people getting a ticket - hurrah! It's still a long time away – what's happening now, then?

ST The production process is a long process. I am a great believer in doing as much preparation as I possibly can and I try hard to avoid any nasty surprises…. It will be some time yet when the actual rehearsals begin.

MN When are they scheduled in for?

ST The end of January, but I will ask for commitment from the acting company by the end of November this year. I am doing a great deal of the vitally-important spade-work – planning, organising, negotiating and scheduling – in the meantime. There are other tasks like the putting the financial package together – the part I like least but which is of course essential, and now finally it's done, agreed and watertight, that's it, we are properly up and running!

MN Congratulations – and very shrewd, and I have to say that not all arts projects see it like that.

ST There are still further sponsors to enrol, because extra finance on top of the ‘bottom-line' budget is always important as is keeping ticket reasonably priced. And, there's always something extra to find…

MN Sponsorship – you have had generous support in the past for the Castle shows: the Duchy of Lancaster, Asda, Askam's Construction, and others.

ST The Duchy has been very supportive, enthusiastic and positive right from the start. Paul Clarke, their chief executive came up from London with his wife to see All's Well That Ends Well - and twice! Once on the opening guest night and again for the student matinée they sponsored – which I thought was great….their enthusiasm and interest was genuine, and much appreciated. But new sponsorship, further financial support from companies and individuals who care about classical drama and live theatre, is always very welcome.

MN I will try and spread the word! You certainly take your responsibilities and planning functions seriously, and I note that you will not be directing. How far are you impresario and how far still the actor and director?

ST I am a professional with an inbuilt discipline for the work and its demands but wouldn't want to go so far as a Wagnerian perfectionism. I try to keep a balance; producer's skills and actors experience and instinct all enable me to keep an overall view of the project as it grows, changes and develops. One thing informs the other. You have to try and avoid obsession so as not to impede the flow of things, but you also need to improvise as unexpected events occur as well as to prepare and plan.

MN That ideal balance can often give rise to risks; do you ever cut corners?

ST Only the unimportant ones … yes, I suppose in trying to work to priorities I try let the less important take care of themselves. That's tricky for me because I want everything to be important!

MN I go along with that, having planned, organised and then conducted and performed in my own concerts in Scarborough. It's rather like having a baby in some ways.

ST I get a great sense of relief after the first night of a show; thereafter it takes on a life of its own – it's like seeing that baby you mentioned grow up and leave home for the first time. Then I know I can ease up, and start to relax, then I start to enjoy the run – when the play has a life and identity all of its own …

MN What about the special problems of working in a building like Lancaster Castle?

ST For a start, there is the ownership and usage of the building to consider. The Castle is owned by the Duchy of Lancaster (ie the reigning monarch), and actually managed by the County Council on the Duchy's behalf. On the prison side the Home Office are tenants, and the Courts side is run by the Department for Constitutional Affairs.

MN It sounds like a bureaucratic and a practical nightmare!

ST It could be. It is my job to understand and respect everybody's needs to ensure everything runs smoothly. This is a site specific operation that evolves in a different way than a play produced in a conventional theatre space; it's complex and challenging because it takes place in a multi-use, non-theatre, working environment …

MN Given the restrictions placed on the production, how do you view the design process?

ST With the Castle management team, I work with the grain of the building, in more ways than one – I have to co-operate closely with those who are in there day in day out, all year round. It's like an artist doing preparatory work on a canvas; you have to get all the initial, priming and background design layers laid down before the rehearsal process can start. Creating the structure in which the company can create …

Fortunately the County Council's staff at the Castle, with Shire Hall Manager Christine Goodier, are all very helpful. The courts actually sit during the day, and of course there is the daily tourism side and the guided tours. It's rather like The Elf and The Shoemaker, or The Tailor of Gloucester – we come out and do our work during the night, when everyone else has finished for the day. And you have to get that operation just right; trust, respect and co-operation is absolutely essential or it simply couldn't happen.

MN Once all that is in place, you have other problems with a huge body count, the doublings you mentioned earlier, ghosts, children and staging battles and so on. But you managed that with Macbeth …

ST Orson Welles (was it he?) once said something like ‘making a film is like playing with the biggest train set in the world'. I think that doing Richard III is going to be rather like that, even if it's a Hornby ‘N'-gauge compared to an epic film shoot.

MN It is certainly possible to do small-scale epic – it can become so much more intimate done like that.

ST Yes, that fits well with the peculiar intimacy of the physical layout of the different parts of the Castle. And for that reason, I actually prefer seeing stage work in The Dukes' studio rather than their main house – it's to do with direct audience contact, engagement on lots of different levels. In a smaller space you know exactly how the audience will feel – because you can see it and feel it very clearly and directly.

MN You have had a great deal of stage and directing work over a lot of years.

ST Yes, I trained initially at the Central School as a drama teacher over 30 years ago, worked in two schools in inner-city Manchester, one a Catholic secondary modern, the other a special needs school. I have worked as an actor on stage, on radio, on television and film. The other big influence on my Demi-Paradise work was the Young National Trust Theatre Company.

I got involved as an actor with them in the early 1980's, as a natural extension of my previous educational theatre work in schools and the wider community - devising carefully researched dramatic recreations of life in National Trust (NT) properties which directly involved children and young people in the action and resolution. I've been bitten by the ‘site-specific' bug ever since.

I think that done well it is a wonderful way to engage and enrich performer and audience member alike. A real ‘shared experience', if you will, which will linger in the memory many years after the event.

MN It sounds great fun. One that Brecht would have identified with …

ST Yes, it was great fun, and I am still addicted to the experience. The NT initiative is still going strong; and although the shows are no longer site-specific and are now seasonal and thematic, the experience is still I'm sure a very high quality one and of course they're dealing with greater number of kids nationwide. And I have been fortunate in working and directing in particular places, special buildings.

MN Directing too?

ST I have also directed for many years now. In recent years I directed Sheridan's The Rivals for Brewery Players at The Brewery Arts Centre in Kendal, and various student projects and productions for The Cumbria Institute of the Arts in Carlisle.

MN But I see from your ‘grand plan' that you will not be directing this production. You surprise me …

ST I'd love to! I really do enjoy directing, but can't do it all! At the Castle I directed Richard II and Measure for Measure but not the others. My old friend and colleague Ian Blower did a terrific job on Macbeth and All's Well That Ends Well. Our other long-term associate and another Lancaster resident Sue McCormick will be directing Richard III. Sue is a great all rounder – acting, singing, writing, devising - a real talent and an inspiration to all of us who know her.

MN That will free you up then to concentrate on the admin and logistics side of things.

ST Yes, though I plan and work through the production details with both the director (who is responsible for the business on the stage on the night) and the producer (whose task it is to ensure everything and everybody is in the right place for the performance to actually happen.)

MN A good producer (I had a first-rate Concert Manager for the musical gigs) is vital.

ST Jane Butterworth filled the role of production manager admirably last year, and I have approached her to do it again. She gives invaluable support in the process, liaising with press and industry, guests, and preparing the programmes and publicity material – which are works of art in themselves!

MN Yes, ‘best value from assets' would sum it up for the bean-counters.

ST There is another important relationship with the musical director. As well as the audience's experience in the building on the night, another important part of our productions is the integral role music plays.

MN Yes – Let's Do It (click here to see review) and Deck The Hall are clear examples of that. Verse and music are inseparable to my ears.

ST With Demi-Paradise, the singing is done by the actors; the music is chosen and arranged by the musical director to define and to carry the mood, the action of the play. This makes our productions special … I have (again) approached Jude Glendinning for Richard III. She did superb work on All's Well That Ends Well and Macbeth.

MN What about other aspects of the production?

ST I always think that good programme notes are essential. For Richard III, it was natural to ask Christine Goodier to do these as she is a professional historian, knows the building intimately and has a great love for the period …. Also I get first- rate support from The Dukes too – they provide technical help, lighting, props, assistance with building the set, advice on casting and so on – it's great having them here on our doorstep. We're all part of the artistic profile that helps make Lancaster the county's ‘City of Culture'.

MN You are fortunate; it is not everywhere that artists – performers, technical, crew and other skills work so well and closely together.

ST No indeed. I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by lots of very talented people – Lancaster is a hotbed for a wide range of diverse talents that I can harness their particular skills and their know how to produce the work. It is a very special place. This means that I can confidently announce our work as having a distinctive local thrust. For example, I am always keen to work with locally based artists to produce publicity and promotional material. A good, striking visual image is so important for posters, programmes, and the other artwork.

MN Local indeed, but Demi-Paradise is a touring company, and …

ST No, we're not! We are essentially ‘site specific', and Let's Do It – our springtime celebration of love and lovers - was a one-off experimental show, a new direction we were exploring. We'd like to do it again sometime because we enjoyed the material and so did the audience.

MN Further afield than the immediate area, I gather.

ST I hope so. But my core work is based firmly at the Castle, and that must come first – the Shakespeare and the annual Deck The Hall.

MN I haven't seen that yet …

ST It's a combination of words and music, a very special evening, and for many of our loyal audience it is one of the cultural highlights of the festive season. And we can get 120 into the Shire Hall for that (it's just on for three nights); we are planning this year to do a Saturday matinée to encourage a wider family audience.

MN So Demi-Paradise is eager to work with youngsters, in education, by outreach into the community? You mentioned working with children earlier.

ST Yes. Richard III calls for ‘The Princes in the Tower', two teenage lads, and we actually need two separate teams because it is a big commitment for youngsters in full time education. There are also licensing and legal restrictions on working with children; the law is, rightly, very strict on the employment of minors.

MN You have done all this before here?

ST Yes, we did this with Macbeth. We had four youngsters in two teams for Fleance and Young Macduff, and they got an awful lot out of it being with professional actors, working in the Castle, learning what it takes to bring a classic text to life. It was a very valuable learning experience in so many different ways for them.

MN How do you recruit the children?

ST I work through parents who come to the shows, and my main source is The Drama Factory, run by Ginny Scott, here in Lancaster. The parents have always been very supportive.

MN What about the rest of the cast, the adults? Any ideas about casting yet?

ST No, it's early days, though I have been talking to several people about possibilities … When negotiating with actors, you have to think ‘what will the cast get out of it?' – and I don't mean just the money. With productions like ours, of Shakespeare in a building that has been here for 900 years, they all get an increased sense of professional status just from simply working in such a building.

MN I can see that – there's not many around can say that.

ST For them it is a jewel of an acting opportunity – we will play it with a company of thirteen, so we are not looking at working with a spectacular cast of sixty, nor of six hundreds as many films have. The reward for them – and the audience - is the sense of intimate splendour generated by this extraordinary Grade I listed building. For the cast, they benefit from the ‘showcase exposure' – many casting directors producers and directors come from across the North West and further afield. And it is also a rare chance for actors to perform in a full-cast play from the classical repertoire – and that, sadly, is an increasingly rare thing these days.

MN I think we both deplore that deeply.

ST Finally, from the actor's point of view, it's great to get stuck into what one critic called ‘a melodrama of genius' - that really is what Richard III is about. It's wonderfully structured and has a powerful theatrical impact, and as actors we're not likely to let historical truth get in the way of a bloody good story! Despite the risk of parody, it's theatrical fun – for performer and player alike – and that's important too.

MN I saw Ian McKellen play the title role on stage some years ago in twentieth-century dress – it was simply a stunning show, and you didn't notice it ran for almost four hours.

ST I gather it was; he has a wonderful grasp of character. It has been interesting recently to hear that he's been doing the pantomime dame thing.

MN That has had some good reviews (click here to see a selection). In some ways, Richard himself is a pantomimic figure – it's all in the melodrama tradition.

ST It certainly is, and a great human tragedy too. We often forget just what the word ‘play' means – it's daring and enjoyable - risky too of course; it brings out the inner child in us, maybe.

MN But as adults, with jobs to do, we easily lose sight of that sometimes … but so far, back to the ‘work' of the ‘play', it seems that you have certainly taken a great deal of time, thought and effort so far on this production. But I gather you have a ‘day job' too?

ST I do; man cannot live by theatre alone … I have been employed as a guide at Lancaster Castle since 1998, and this has helped nurture a liking for and knowledge of the building. I have been lucky to be able to have developed a good relationship with friends and colleagues there and was therefore able to nurture and develop the original Demi-Paradise idea through the basis of those core relationships.

MN What about the theatre work?

ST I am still a working actor on television and radio etc, but all that is just one strand of my working life. This is why I am always working on one project or another, and have to make sure that there are times when I step aside and do not work.

MN Of course – everyone needs a break, to chill out and move away from the work to look at things objectively.

ST I also have to remember not to neglect other important parts of life. For instance, I became a grandfather last year when my eldest daughter Esme gave birth to Joseph last March, and our family ties have strengthened and deepened as a result. I'm also incredibly lucky to have a very supportive partner in Carol as well as old friends and associates whose company and opinions I much enjoy and value. When it comes to my professional vocation I'm always very committed and driven to do the best I possibly can. I suppose my modus operandi is very different, as is anyone's when they're self-employed.

MN I know that too – it can be a minefield of all sorts or problems.

ST Work is like buses, coat-hangers or good meals - you never know when they're coming along. It is not always easy. It's the range and quality of the work one does that makes it balanced. And satisfying. And it is surprising sometimes just how and when that can come about! But then, that's what makes life so interesting, isn't it?

MN I think we are both agreed on that one …

ST [nods gravely, a smile playing round the lips of the ‘perpetually dapper' impresario]

And with a rewarding and somewhat drained feeling that we have both had a fascinating and enjoyable afternoon, we finish the tea and Steve departs on his bike into the sunset …

You can see some comment on Ian McKellen in pantomime here:
The Guardian (Aladdin 2004)
The Guardian (Interview 2004)
The Observer (Aladdin 2004)

Copyright © Michael Nunn 1 July 2005